And talking of le meme chose…

4 Responses to And talking of le meme chose…

1. Steve says:

   28/12/2025 at 10:07 am

   Thank you for the link and the conversation. So much of what you talked about rings true. Too much emphasis is given to a therapeutic understanding of salvation (existential rather than eschatological). Too much emphasis is given to inner feelings. Worship has, as you say, become about performance.

   Thank you, too, for filling everyone in on some of the dubious background to some of the charismatic stuff – it’s been truly eye-opening.

   Having been involved in the charismatic renewal from the early 1980s, I know there have been multiple errors, but nevertheless I feel I have emerged with a deeper understanding of scripture and of discipleship. I’m concerned that in rightly criticising the excesses and failures of the charismatic renewal, we don’t throw out the baby with the bath water. While I have real doubts about the Toronto and Kansas City things, and while I have seen exaggerated claims for healing etc, I have been to Bethel in Redding and have attended numerous conferences and have witnessed some genuine healing (as well as received some good Bible teaching). I have always brought something back of worth, something which checks out biblically, and something which reveals God’s grace at work.

   As someone brought up in a pretty dry-as-dust form of Anglican Christianity, while questioning some of the excesses you describe, I do value some of what people like John Wimber, David Watson, Bill Johnson et al. have contributed to shaping my faith today.

   What I’m finding at the moment is, that now that I’m pretty ancient, I’m valuing liturgy and hymnody more. There’s so much more content in the words which elucidates God’s nature and purposes, drawing a worshipful response.

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2. Jon Garvey says:

   28/12/2025 at 11:11 am

   Steve

   Rats! I just did a long reply and somehow erased it. Let’s start again.

   As I said to John Collins, one reason I’m interested in the “white collar Charismatic” scene in Britain, as opposed to the kooky cults in which he was raised, is that error is mixed in with a fair amount of truth. That’s particularly so in a movement like Newfrontiers, which claims to be both Reformed and Charismatic.

   In fact, any church this side of glory is going to contain some errors, and the task of the teacher (or prophet?) is therefore not primarily to throw stones at the madmen across the road, but to weed his own patch diligently. “Watch your life and teaching closely,” Paul said to Timothy, amid much other doctine-orientated advice.

   Why does it matter? Because the history of two thousand years shows that error is sown by Satan, and has a habit of squeezing out truth until one’s own church consists of the madmen, or dry-as-dust Anglicans. Or at least, that the church’s spiritual sharpness is diluted. And when Christianity is under such attack as we see across the world, we need to be lean and fit.

   Your final paragraph is a case in point. The sidelining of liturgy and hymnody with “content” is not a bug of Charismatic theology, but a feature. We see it not only in the NAR (did you really get blessed by Bethel Redding??), but quite explicitly in the revivalism of Evan Roberts or Finney, the Pietism of Count Zinzendorf, the enthusiasm of radical Anabaptists, the Mediaeval mystics, and right back to Montanus in the 2nd century.

   You’ll see I quoted David Pawson, whom I first met c1968, in a recent comment here, as well as mentioning him in the podcast. I gained a lot from his teaching over the years, but believe he went all over the place doctrinally in later years, and I even crossed swords directly with him on one occasion.

   The reason, IMHO, was his increasing reliance on the Charismatic experience over careful exegesis. My own ambivalence is reflected in two comments on the podcast: to one person he was the greatest Bible teacher ever, and to the other he was dodgy – and a dirty Calvinist to boot (which is false, as he had an increasingly Arminian view of grace, much to my disappointment as a Reformed believer).

   I’ll close by previewing what I hope to discuss more in a future post: that by its stress on an immediate experience of the Spirit, which is actually indistinguishable from that in non-Christian religious or narcotic traditions, it actually blocks the way to the “solid joys and lasting treasures” that the Holy Spirit, working through the Word, promises to believers. Obviously, sound liturgy and hymnody are two of the means by which the Spirit enlivens the Word in our hearts.

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   • Steve says:

     28/12/2025 at 01:11 pm

     Thank you for your swift reply. I look forward to further YouTube videos.0

     I don’t think we disagree on the dangers of either dry-as-dust and hyper-charismatic tendencies. I think the point I’m trying to make is there is an element of both/and rather than either/or. And, yes, I really was blessed by my visit to Bethel.

     I’m a retired vicar, but when I was active, primary ain was to preach the Bible carefully, rather than what I wanted it to say. I encouraged the prophetic and healing ministry while being acutely aware of when it didn’t go quite right.

     Once or twice we had some spiritual nutters come along who tried to share what “stank like a fish” (as a Warden put it). They left very quickly. We weren’t white-collar, so perhaps we were spared some of the excesses.

     I have tried to be aware of heretical tendencies, including in Bethel (and Willow Creek, whose influence I accept), but especially now in the CofE with its move to dangerous and harmful acceptance (and promotion) of non-biblical sexual relationships.

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     • Jon Garvey says:

       28/12/2025 at 02:30 pm

       primary aim was to preach the Bible carefully, rather than what I wanted it to say.

       Whoa… that’s a dangerous habit to get into! 😉

       Apart from the work of the Holy Spirit in my life (which I allude to in my own case in the video), there is so much gold in the Bible that the constant desire to go beyond what it teaches is one of the great mysteries of the world!

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